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Aug 7, 2009 6:31:49 GMT -8
Post by zoser on Aug 7, 2009 6:31:49 GMT -8
He is trying to use the London race as some sort of measurement. The damn near did not run that race with a team. Rodgers is the US champ and has done nothing to lessen his value to the team. Like I said, ppl think he fell off after trials, he maintained and when it was time his coach took him back home to get ready for the show. London was not important. Barring some stick issues I expect to see the second fastest man in the US on the relay team.
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Aug 7, 2009 7:17:11 GMT -8
Post by Seabiscuit on Aug 7, 2009 7:17:11 GMT -8
Here we go again with the "U.S. champ" vs. - who can blaze a leg and not falter late-leg, - who has the horse power to push hard through the zone
As for Spearmon on the backstretch...he gives up a bit at the beginning (usually) even though he closes well. Thus, I like Crawford who closes light a freight train off the bend pushing Wallace out hard. Because if Gay gets the stick first Bolt will not catch him. THEN we have a bit of a cushion for the final leg.
Hope the coaches keep politics out and just try to win the blasted thing with the horses who match up.
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Aug 7, 2009 10:14:23 GMT -8
Post by sprint logic on Aug 7, 2009 10:14:23 GMT -8
He is trying to use the London race as some sort of measurement. The damn near did not run that race with a team. Rodgers is the US champ and has done nothing to lessen his value to the team. Like I said, ppl think he fell off after trials, he maintained and when it was time his coach took him back home to get ready for the show. London was not important. Barring some stick issues I expect to see the second fastest man in the US on the relay team. Well that "one" way to look at it .. Another way is that he was the US champion by default and has done nothing since to show that he is indeed our second fastest man - or even third for that matter .. And he has lessened his value to the team - by not participating in sessions that were deemed mandatory .. This is supposed to be a relay "team" and he has in no way put himself in a position to bond with those that should be competing in the final .. He has made himself a stranger and is counting on the fact that he won a particular race to put him on the squad, while others have demonstrated their fitness and their worth while in Europe .. This on top of the simple execution issues I outlined before ..
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wfh
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Relays
Aug 7, 2009 10:33:53 GMT -8
Post by wfh on Aug 7, 2009 10:33:53 GMT -8
Look at the reason you just cited:
"And he has lessened his value to the team - by not participating in sessions that were deemed mandatory .. This is supposed to be a relay "team" and he has in no way put himself in a position to bond with those that should be competing in the final .. He has made himself a stranger and is counting on the fact that he won a particular race to put him on the squad, while others have demonstrated their fitness and their worth while in Europe .. "
By that standard then you should not be campaigning for a squad that includes Doc, Tyson or Muna on the women's side. We know just as little about Muna and her health or where she is as we do Mike and yet there is an exception.
IMO it seems your preference is for Mike to not be on it...which you're entitled to.
I just can't ride with the reasoning you provide because you aren't extending it to everyone under the same situation.
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Relays
Aug 7, 2009 10:40:25 GMT -8
Post by sprint logic on Aug 7, 2009 10:40:25 GMT -8
Well, Muna we have discussed, and I said I could see someone else taking third for the women .. Doc asked for and was granted a leave from the London event, but as far as I know he has attended camp .. And he showed his fitness against Tyson and Asafa .. Tyson has more than shown his fitness and has been in Europe and available for camp .. Rodgers has done virtually nothing since Trials .. Ran and lost a couple of races - big .. Then went home, and has been there until mandatory time to show for Worlds .. Quite a bit of difference in what he has done vs others ..
Now all that is non personal, just the facts .. As for my preference, like I said, I like guys that close well and can give you what you need through the zones, and Rodgers doesn't fit that .. In addition we need as many vets as possible on this squad - this will be war .. Rodger, IMHO, is not ready for that .. Finally, where would you put him .. He doesn't run the turn as well as either Crawford or Gay .. Nor does he finish as well as Spearmon .. And he has yet to show the composure of Doc ..
I understand what he did at Trials .. But, for me, that doesn't trump what too many others bring to the table ..
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I just want to add that we are talking about the relay here and not the 100 .. By that I mean that there is this assumption that the two are the same ... That by denying Rodgers a spot on the relay he is being denied something that is his by right .. What he earned by being national champion in the 100 is a lane in the 100 meters in Berlin !! Nothing more, nothing less .. There is no rule that says that those individuals that make the 100 team will also represent the US in the 4x1 final .. They become part of a relay POOL .. That is what they earn .. From that point forward a "team" is put together of the best available talent .. Not the individuals with the fastest times, but the squad that is able to work together the best ..
At least that is the premise that I think we are all working from .. And there is much precedence for making changes from 100 meter guys ..
1972 WR setter at the Trials, Rey Robinson, was off the team in favor of 200 man Larry Black .. The squad went on to set a WR and win gold ..
1976 200 man Millard Hampton was on the team over several 100 meter men .. The team won going away ..
Tim Montgomery was never first in line for anyone's relay squad in spite of his speed .. Left off the squad in 96, dropped the stick in 97, on winning squad in 99, left off the squad in 00, anchored winning squad in 01 and left off the squad in 03 in spite of being a finalist in the 100 ..
And a big reason why that 96 squad got nailed by Canada is because we ran Mitchell anchor solely because he was "Trials Champion" when he clearly should have been on third leg and Carl Lewis was an obvious for anchor - unless you went unconventional and anchored Mitchell but ran MJ on third leg !!
We were done in in 04 by running Coby Miller in the final simply because he was top four when we clearly had others - Bernard Williams is the first name that comes to mind - that would have fit much better on the squad ..
My point is that there have been many times when we've gone outside the box and done it right, and far too many when we've stayed in the box and got our hats handed to us .. And I'm afraid that this is one time where if we stay in the box, that box will be a hat box !!
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wfh
New Member
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Relays
Aug 7, 2009 11:16:42 GMT -8
Post by wfh on Aug 7, 2009 11:16:42 GMT -8
Well, Muna we have discussed, and I said I could see someone else taking third for the women .. Doc asked for and was granted a leave from the London event, but as far as I know he has attended camp .. And he showed his fitness against Tyson and Asafa .. Tyson has more than shown his fitness and has been in Europe and available for camp .. Rodgers has done virtually nothing since Trials .. Ran and lost a couple of races - big .. Then went home, and has been there until mandatory time to show for Worlds .. Quite a bit of difference in what he has done vs others .. And I guess the bolded is what keeps me from letting this topic go... CAMP just started as of August 6th. Rodgers is there.
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Aug 7, 2009 11:35:33 GMT -8
Post by sprint logic on Aug 7, 2009 11:35:33 GMT -8
I believe there were camps prior to the start of Worlds .. Maybe I am wrong ..
Either way .. That is the least of my reasons for not wanting him on the squad .. My reasons were stated long ago and have to do with whether or not he fits .. And in my book he doesn't .. Placing him on the squad "simply because" is the wrong reason .. And will result in a loss .. Just my opinion .. But I do know a few things about putting relay teams together ..
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wfh
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Relays
Aug 7, 2009 13:10:51 GMT -8
Post by wfh on Aug 7, 2009 13:10:51 GMT -8
Fair enough.
But there has been only ONE camp...and that camp is what is taking place right now.
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Aug 7, 2009 13:33:23 GMT -8
Post by sprint logic on Aug 7, 2009 13:33:23 GMT -8
Just had a chat with a coach and you're correct there were no camps in Europe this year .. I was thinking previous structure .. They abandoned that this year ..
We will get to see Mr Rodgers in Cottbus tomorrow however .. He'll be running the 100 and a relay leg - I believe second against Wallace !! And we should see all the pertinent players .. So better chance to make so serious assessments ...
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Aug 7, 2009 13:47:37 GMT -8
Post by sprint logic on Aug 7, 2009 13:47:37 GMT -8
Squads will be:
Tyson to Wallace to Crawford to Doc
Terrence to Rodgers to Padgett to Rae
Interesting pairings .. We'll see how this develops ..
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Relays
Aug 7, 2009 17:26:32 GMT -8
Post by zoser on Aug 7, 2009 17:26:32 GMT -8
Rodgers has done it all this season. When it was show time his record and times were superb. To say he has faltered post champs is a red herring. Ivory is the only person that has run fast since and he faltered when the lights were on. Rae has been missing yet you found a spot for him, that is illogical. Doc has run one good race last week. Rodgers went home to get ready for the show. To say he has not proven he is the second fastest in the States is just an attempt to form a viable argument, not based in what we all know about this game. Rodgers makes the final and dips under ten. Rae is the question mark and Shawn is suspect. He is a vet and the only good race to his name this year is the final 200 at nationals. Sorry fellas, Rodgers fits. The ONLY aspect working against him is experience, which brings us to the age old dilemma of how do you get experience if you never get to run. Tomorrow should be interesting. I am never a fan of get out and let them come get you. I thought Ben was wasted on lead off by Canada, so we will see what comes of this experiment
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Aug 8, 2009 6:22:55 GMT -8
Post by sprint logic on Aug 8, 2009 6:22:55 GMT -8
Come on Zoser .. Everyone else has run and shown fitness in this past month except Rodgers ..
I haven't found a spot for Rae in the final group .. I said if others were not there I would use Rae over Rodgers .. Why ?? Because he is a closer .. And I keep saying that I want guys that can push the zone .. Rodgers is the guy that must get out in order to get his times .. That is a weakness in the relay .. And how can you say Rodgers has done it all ?? He had a three meet streak this year .. A good one, no doubt .. But when you look at his career to date, what we are talking about is a three meet streak in the middle of this season ... I'm talking about guys that have done it over and over again and have show this year that when they need to be on they can be ...
And lest you forget he isn't the #2 on the clock, Ivory is .. So based on the time argument Ivory should be on the squad !! Easy for you to pick a point here or there about each athlete then go back to Trials and say Rodgers is better .. That is trying to construct an argument ..
Quite simply this is about relay ability, not 100 ability, and we have individuals that have shown fitness AND have demonstrated abilities necessary for the relay that Rodgers has yet to show ...
Now your point about how do you get the experience or show the skills without getting on the track is a good one .. And if this were three years ago where we were clearly the best squad heading out to the track, then we could afford to let someone get out there and grow .. But we are going up against a squad that took down the world record ... This is 1996, not 2006 .. So we have to go to battle with what we KNOW not what we hope !!
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Aug 8, 2009 6:47:01 GMT -8
Post by zoser on Aug 8, 2009 6:47:01 GMT -8
A three meet streak? ? Check the Brazil circuit and get back to me on his streak. You talk zones, name me the man with the best 200 out of your "others". Show me where Rodgers was being run down during his hot streak. What he is is a 9.95-10.0x sprinter who has a solid race and can run a good 200. He does not fade and does not need to be out front. Out of everyone you want to put on the relays over him he has a better race and runs stronger. You are better off arguing you are not sure about his race than telling me these fantasies. Crawford showed fitness? Well if that is proof I damn sure want him off the relay. Like I said he will make the final in Berlin and then where does your speculation about the man leave you? You are merely focusing on the last month as if that is all that matters. Well then we need to boot Muna off the relay too. You still want to argue showing fitness? 20.24 and you have Ivory over him based on the argument that Mike cannot push the zone, which you have no proof of just thoughts. There is no reasoning to exclude him other than folks do not THINK he can run a leg. But there is no proof
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Relays
Aug 8, 2009 7:28:42 GMT -8
Post by zoser on Aug 8, 2009 7:28:42 GMT -8
10.15 -1.5.
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Aug 8, 2009 9:33:55 GMT -8
Post by sprint logic on Aug 8, 2009 9:33:55 GMT -8
Sorry Zoze but you're scattered trying to put an argument together .. Spearmon, Gay and Crawford are ALL 200 men that push the zone - period .. You keep going back to Rae and Ivory when they are not in the conversation !!! The conversation is about who should be the final and everyone I've named for the final are 200 men who push the zone ...
And you know like I know that Crawford showing fitness is not the same as others .. Crawford is a vet that simply has to be healthy - he knows what to do ... You can't use the same brush to evaluate everyone because they are all different ...
And as far as Rodgers getting run down, there was no one in the race with that type of pattern, though Rae closed on him every time ... And Brazil means nothing cause there was no one of note there .. I'm giving Rodgers the two Visa Series races and Nationals where we know the comp was of caliber ... I'm not looking at the races against the Sisters of St Marys ...
But the bottom line is I want vets with relay ability in the race - that's MY preference ...
Note that Terrence to Rodgers to Crawford to Doc went 37.8 in Cottbus .. Not bad without Wally and Tyson !!! :-)
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And quite simply you and I are not going to agree - no matter how you struggle to make a case - because we have philosophical differences regarding the relay ... You see the relay as an extension of the 100, and place sole emphasis on 100 meter times .. I see the relay as a race of its own .. And my emphasis is on skills and abilities for each individual leg .. That's what it really comes down to ..
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